James Gunn on the DCU: why standalone, and where is Batman?

James Gunn is defending the DC Universe's more standalone approach. His comments sparked a long debate about the Star Wars comparison he used, whether a Batman movie is coming soon enough, and how the R-rated horror film Clayface fits into the plan. I was away, so Roxy and Mike, who covered DC together for years, took over the discussion. They split on the Star Wars comparison and on the missing Batman, but agreed on the DCU's varied tones and the casting of its leads.

James Gunn Says DCU Stories Don't Need to Lead Somewhere

Dark Horizons reported that the DCU from Gunn and Peter Safran has always been designed to be more standalone than Marvel's more integrated MCU. Characters can cross over, as in the upcoming Man of Tomorrow, but tone can vary widely, which allows for a bloody horror film like Clayface. That has led to debate over whether Clayface should be compared to Superman, and whether the DCU should be building to a payoff the way Marvel did across its first three phases.

Gunn responded on social media: "DCU is just an alternate universe. We can enter at any location or time and tell that story. I dislike the idea that individual stories aren't meaningful unless they lead to something else." He said Star Wars has essentially done this for 50 years across movies, shows, games and books, though without the tonal variety. He added that the Superman saga runs from Superman into Man of Tomorrow, but other stories don't exist only to set that up, and that he wants people to see Clayface as a fun horror movie in itself, "not because of where else Clayface will show up three movies from now."

The Star Wars Comparison Divides Roxy and Mike

Roxy, who calls herself a huge James Gunn fan, found the Star Wars line strange. To her, Star Wars built its success on trilogies, not individual stories, and standalone projects like Andor only arrived in the last five years. She said Gunn could have claimed he was taking a page from Star Wars' most recent approach, but that isn't what he said. She admitted she may not know Star Wars well enough, particularly the books.

Mike said he wasn't on board with Gunn's comments until the Star Wars analogy. For him, anyone who grew up with Star Wars knew there were other unconnected avenues into it, and PLD, who jumped in during the discussion, pointed to the Ewok movies of the 1980s. Mike also thinks the MCU conditioned audiences to expect every film to lead to the next, recalling a moviegoer years ago complaining that a DC film had no post-credits scene because Marvel does it.

Roxy Keeps Asking Where Batman Is

Roxy said she liked all three recent films, Superman, Supergirl and Clayface, and once argued that the DCU should simply hit singles. Now she feels it has done exactly that, yet she can't stop asking where Batman is. She worries Man of Tomorrow could become a problematic Justice League situation, introducing Batman, Wonder Woman and multiple Green Lanterns at once without each being earned. She fears she is the person Gunn is talking about, but still says that in Gunn she trusts, because he has never made anything she disliked.

Mike, a self-described Batman guy, is not in the same place. He considers Clayface a success already, saying it made back its production budget in four days, and he thinks word of mouth will help it, though it won't make $500 million. He suspects the studio may now push to focus on big guns like Man of Tomorrow. The point was also made in the discussion that Batman can't wait: apart from George Clooney, audiences have never hated a Batman, so the DCU version has to be a home run, and given the delays on Matt Reeves' The Batman Part II, the argument was that the DCU can't wait another four years after it.

Mike Backs Villain Movies Like Clayface Before Batman Arrives

Deadline reported that a Poison Ivy show is coming, and it caused some confusion. There has been talk of Poison Ivy appearing in Reeves' films, and the show is reportedly connected to the showrunner of The Penguin, yet it is being described as part of Gunn's universe. Either way, Mike said seeing how good Clayface was put him on board with the DCU building villains on their own. In most Batman movies, he argued, the villain's origin takes over, and in the comics few villains' origins are tied to Batman. If Clayface turns up later, nobody has to spend a film on his origin.

Roxy said that on any given day she might agree. A Clayface movie, then Poison Ivy, then perhaps the Mr. Freeze romance she has pitched, all building toward a Batman world, would be great. She just isn't ready to stop asking, and she would like Gunn to share his Batman plans, while admitting she isn't entitled to them.

Clayface Spoiler Review: A Strong Lead and a Gotham With No Batman

Mike would have rated Clayface a 75 after one viewing, and it has risen to an 85 the more he thinks about it. Roxy calls it good rather than great, solid at minimum, and says people shredding it are wrong. She loved the body horror and praised Tom Rhys Harries, Naomi Ackie and the actor from The Handmaid's Tale who plays the detective boyfriend, plus Mike Flanagan's original story. Mike called Harries a movie star, liking that the film makes you pity his character without making him a tragic villain.

Gotham was the sticking point. Mike loved the design and the mention of the Narrows. Roxy questioned why the DCU's introduction to Gotham has no bat signal, no Commissioner Gordon reference and nothing about Batman, and why it looked generic and safe. Mike countered that Gotham has many precincts and a few murders might not reach Batman, and that forced references feel put in. He would rather a mobster like Roland Daggett had been the villain.

Mike's main complaint was that villain: the club owner felt weak, and he liked the henchmen more. A reviewer on Twitter called the film DC's Darkman, which Mike found fitting, and it's a comparison I've been making too, since I love that movie. Roxy, though, was genuinely scared of all of them, and both agreed the film's Coast City felt more developed than its Gotham.

How Clayface's Shape-Shifting Fits Matt Reeves' Batman World

Roxy asked Mike how he felt about the way Matt Hagen's Clayface turns into other people. Mike said that for about 90 percent of the movie, this Clayface fits in Matt Reeves' universe. The changes happen through a wipe or a person passing in front of the camera, so you understand what he's doing and it stays believable, instead of his face drooping and reshaping. The finale was different. Mike called it 100 percent James Gunn's Clayface and said he couldn't picture a massive walking mound of clay in Reeves' Batman world.

He put the restrained approach down to budget, but said that knowing what audiences got, and where the character will go next time he appears, he was okay with it. Roxy struggled with the shape-shifting a little. She singled out the mirror scene, where he moves between himself and the talk show host, as an amazing scene, yet felt part of Clayface's identity is losing himself among so many people. The changes worked for her in the nightclub, where he passes people as he shifts, but in quieter moments she wanted to see more of the transformation.

Mike understood that critique but repeated that it came down to money. He said they knew going in the film cost somewhere between 30 and 40 million dollars, so the filmmakers had to work around it, and it didn't bother him. What he loved was the scene of Hagen in bed forming a T-shirt, which answered people who asked where his clothes come from: his body makes them.

The Doctor and Matt Hagen: A Disagreement Over the Kiss

Mike liked the chemistry between Hagen and the doctor and liked that she seemed to be into him. In his view, this was a man who gave himself to her to save her project, a project her career depended on, and they formed a bond. He enjoyed Hagen's desperation, calling her the day after she told him to email her tomorrow.

Roxy didn't feel the attraction was earned. She wanted to see a little psychosis from Hagen: a movie star who has always been wanted, who convinces himself this woman wants him too. She would have preferred him to lean in and the doctor to stop it, telling him she was his doctor and didn't feel that way, rather than kissing him and then pulling back. She thought that would have been a stronger choice. Mike argued that Hagen could once have had anyone, that life was taken from him, and here is the woman who saved him.

Clayface's Final Form and DC's Casting

Mike said a friend had missed that Hagen created both himself and the doctor at once. When he nods to her as a homeless man, that's the last we see of the real doctor. Mike also called it a nice homage to Batman: The Animated Series and its idea of the role of a lifetime. The final form, where he melts and screams with his face still visible, was described as looking awesome, and the design was praised. The discussion also landed on DC not having missed with the casting of its leads yet, and Mike and Roxy both agreed on that.

Robert Pattinson on Steven Soderbergh Helping Matt Reeves

The other story was Steven Soderbergh stepping in to help Matt Reeves finish production on The Batman Part II after Reeves stepped away for family reasons. Soderbergh is handling the last third of filming while communicating with Reeves, who will handle post-production. Robert Pattinson told GamesRadar+: "I am so happy he's come to help Matt. It's incredibly generous of him and he's doing it in the loveliest way. It's completely selfless."

Mike thought the quote was great and liked that Pattinson gets to work with Soderbergh. He knows some people online call it corporate speak because a similar situation happened before, but he doesn't think this is the same. He doesn't believe this Batman would have gone into production if Gunn and DC didn't want it to work, since without a Batman of their own they could simply have stopped after one movie. Roxy loved that, after so many horror stories about people screaming on sets and going over budget, a director this successful is keeping his head down to finish someone else's vision. She stressed she feels horrible about whatever Reeves and his family are going through.

Who Added Clayface's Club Scene

Roxy thought the airplane scene was amazing and loved it even more than in the trailer. Mike said a man beside him, who spent much of the film with his hoodie over his face, got up and left after it. Mike had also heard that the club scene wasn't from Mike Flanagan's script. From what he understood, director James Watkins added it because he wanted to see Hagen revel in his power. Both loved the scene, and its dance humor.

Batman References in Clayface and a Poison Ivy Show

When Mike Joyce wrote in that the film needed a Bruce Wayne mention or a Bat-Signal, Roxy agreed, while admitting she is embarrassed by her Batman stance. On whether Batman will be announced around Man of Tomorrow, Mike said he believes Gunn has cast his Batman and is working out when and how to announce it.

Asked about a Poison Ivy show with no Batman, Mike reversed it: if a hit Batman movie existed and a Clayface series ran in the same Gotham without him, would that matter? Roxy said she'd hope for a couple of references, because Batman would be omnipresent in that city. Mike compared it to Tom Cruise living in Los Angeles without being mentioned daily, adding that a Batman stopping a mugging isn't news.

Mike said it depends on whether the show takes place in Gotham and whether it's an origin. Clayface worked because, aside from the club scene, nothing would yet draw Batman's attention, but if Ivy wraps City Hall in a giant vine, Batman needs to show up. Roxy said she still won't be thrilled if there are no references.

On the doctor seeming not to care about her fiance, Roxy thought she was in shock. Mike liked the fiance as a rare good cop in Gotham, with a partner who seemed to be on the take, which he felt said enough about the city without Gordon walking in. Roxy wanted only something small, like a placard for Commissioner Gordon's office.

Bane, Deathstroke and Alan Ritchson

Mike is on board with the reported Bane and Deathstroke movie, reportedly titled Savage Hunters, but said Batman would need to appear if it's set in Gotham, and not otherwise. Roxy said DC has confirmed talks with Alan Ritchson, yet neither she nor Mike thinks he should be Batman. Roxy said Henry Cavill as Batman would be too complicated for her, and Mike agreed, though he thinks Cavill could actually pull it off.