David Grusch Tells Joe Rogan He Saw Dead Bodies From a Crash Retrieval, and Parts of His Story Do Not Add Up

David Grusch has told Joe Rogan that he saw audiovisual material of dead cadavers at a crash retrieval, and that he has heard about reptilian beings, grays and what he calls NHI versus NHI warfare. This might be the most bonkers interview about ufology I have ever seen, and I have seen a lot, especially from Grusch. Some might call it Grusch going off the rails. Others might call it Grusch revealing the truth.

Grusch Says Reptilians and Grays Were Fighting When a Craft Crashed

Asked what the reptilians looked like, Grusch said he has never seen them in person, but a friend described them as "7 foot tall plus" and "sort of gorilla looking," with scaly skin. When Rogan said "there apparently is NHI versus NHI warfare," Grusch replied "We've documented that," and said that when a reptilian craft crashed, the assumption was some sort of conflict, because there were dead grays there too. Asked whether the grays and reptilians were fighting, his answer was "Yeah, I guess."

According to Grusch, the living reptilians from that crash were killed, and when Rogan asked whether they were shot, he said yes. About a video of dead bodies, he said he was very careful with that and confirmed it through other sources and methods to make sure it was not a limited hangout from a government element trying to sway him.

He also made a series of other claims in the interview. He said he bumped into "the deep underbelly of the federal government" and a criminal enterprise run out of a particular agency, which he alleges raised money through trafficking under the cover of national security programs. Asked whether that meant child trafficking, he said "Officers of the government. That's true," and that he briefed members on the details in a classified setting. He relayed that Tim Burchett said on Benny Johnson's podcast that Stephen Miller had called him about being blocked from access, and Grusch described Miller as an alpha dog "as a fellow alpha," which Rogan told him was a silly thing to say. Grusch said he believes that before Trump's term ends it is all going to come out, including recovered intact and semi intact craft, the intelligence piloting them, and reverse engineering, and he compared the effect to the uniting feeling in post 9/11 America.

Grusch's Truth and Reconciliation Comparison for Legacy Program Amnesty

Grusch told Rogan he believes in amnesty for people in the program, done like the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in post apartheid South Africa. In his own description, a white farmer comes in and says he murdered a bunch of black people, and is told thank you for telling us, don't do it again, and move on. He added that he was distilling it down, and that he has friends who run the program who signed paperwork carrying the threat of treason charges.

I am sure Grusch did not mean it this way, but it came off as egregious. Offering amnesty to people who committed crimes to cover up the legacy program is a desire that has often been expressed. But describing it as someone admitting to killing people and being told not to do it again, and then saying let's do that, is the craziest thing I have ever heard. I am sure there is more to that story than he expressed so simply, and some clarification would be great. Still, I do not know how anybody gets behind that idea, and if that is what happened in South Africa, it sounds nuts to me.

Asked What He Knows, Grusch Speculated About Sentient Plasmoids

When Rogan asked what these things are and what they are capable of, Grusch talked about physical and non physical intelligence. He suggested the orbs could "possibly" be sentient plasmoids, perhaps a probe sent through some sort of wormhole by another intelligence, while stressing that this is a theoretical framework and that he does not have a PhD in it. I found that interesting, because the question was about what he knows and can say, and he answered at length with what is all speculation. They do get into what he learned later in the interview.

Asked which countries besides China, Russia and the US have access to these vehicles, he said he did not want to get into it because it is sensitive. Rogan then raised the story of a craft so large a building had to be built around it, supposedly in Korea. Grusch said he had heard that rumour online. To me this is the game I hate in this community: I can't talk about it, but I'm talking about it, with a smirk that suggests he knows something. I am sure he does not mean it on purpose, I have never met him, and nothing about this is personal.

Grusch's No Experience Origin Story Does Not Square With His Own Account

Grusch told Rogan that, as far as he can remember, he has had no experience with the phenomenon. He has been an amateur astronomer since middle school, has a physics degree, and has never seen anything stupendous. Yet in the same answer he said that in 2009 he read the Defense Intelligence Reference Documents from AAWSAP, wondering why the DIA was looking into magnetohydrodynamic propulsion and cloaking. He said he later learned a top secret program he had worked on was actually looking for UAP, that imagery analysts told him about ten years into his career that they had been told to airbrush round objects out of photos, and that he went through a "smoking man recruitment thing for a year" and was told he would get bizarre accesses, but was never recruited.

The odds of bumping into the AAWSAP documents almost a decade before he investigated for the UAP task force are so slim that it is not a coincidence to me. Something about that does not sit right. And what happened to never having any experiences? It sounds like he had a lot. This is the first I am hearing that he was nearly recruited into the legacy program long before he started investigating, and nobody is talking about it. I thought the story was that he had no experience and did not even believe in UFOs.

Grusch then retold his origin story: in spring 2017, while briefing at the CIA, the chief of a very sensitive office asked him what he knew about UFOs and a Pentagon program, and he said he did not know. He said he was briefed on almost every DoD program at the time, became professionally interested after people went public, and in early 2019 joined the Navy task force as the NRO representative. He closed by saying he never saw evidence or had personal experience. That just sounds like a lot of contradictions to me.

Do you think Grusch's earlier brushes with the program fit his no experience story, or do they change how you read it?

Grusch Says He Verified the Event Himself, With No Scientists Involved

Rogan pressed Grusch on whether what he was shown could have been a psyop. Grusch said he was very careful, confirmed it "through other sources and methods", and independently verified that there was an event. Asked how many bodies he saw, he said "I think three or four is what I saw." Asked whether they had gender, he said they looked amorphous to him, but once again it was a pan, and that they had long hair as far as he could recall. He describes them as beautiful, maybe with some form fitting clothes, but he saw them far away and cannot really say why they are beautiful.

He is absolutely convinced this is not a psyop. But confirming that an event happened is not the same as confirming that what he was shown is real. How do you confirm that? He is probably confirming it with people who would be involved anyway. It is all circular reporting, where they use each other to confirm each other. We are being asked to trust that Grusch, on his own, confirmed the greatest proof in the history of humanity, with no scientists involved. That does not sound like a good idea. He also brings up Matthew Sullivan, and my best to his family, but Sullivan was one of Grusch's sources, so I think a lot of this came from him.

And why are we showing it to the president? Tell Stephen Miller you have it, show it, say you verified it, and that is the smoking gun. That is why this is so suspicious, and I have more on where I think it is all coming from later in this piece.

Grusch Claims Reptilians and Grays Are Fighting in the Sky

Grusch told Rogan that a friend encountered reptilians that were alive after a crash, and that some crashes come down to NHI versus NHI. The human looking, Greek god types usually fly boomerang or crescent moon craft, though not always. The reptilians, he said, tend to fly something "tic tac looking". His friend described them as about seven feet tall or more with scaly, gorilla looking skin, and Grusch said there are multiple types, some more humanoid. There were dead grays at that crash too, so the assumption was a conflict. As for how often this has happened, he said "it seems to be at least a dozen or two. I don't know."

This sounds bonkers to me. If I saw proof, maybe it would not be, but without proof it is bonkers. I had never heard of reptilians that look like gorillas before.

What is interesting is the claim that reptilians fly the tic tacs, which would make the Nimitz encounter reptilians. Grusch testified in 2023 with David Fravor sitting right next to him talking about the Nimitz incident, and Grusch never said the Tic Tac was reptilian. Either he learned it since, or he had the information and said nothing. Either way we need to ask him why, and if he learned it recently, he should testify again so he can say all this under oath. Unfortunately, I am going to tell you right now, that is not going to happen.

Grusch Says US Personnel Died and the Reptilians Were Shot

Grusch also said the grays are real, pointing to the 1994 Ariel School sighting in Zimbabwe, and that colleagues of his saw reptilians alive. "Again, no proof. No proof." People want me to focus on whether Grusch is credible or believable, but none of that matters. If it is true, provide the proof and his credibility becomes irrelevant. I believe Grusch believes what he is saying, but I think he has been put through the wringer. And I do not know where he goes from here. He is at the top of the mountain, and he has already said disclosure will not happen unless Trump does it.

Then came another bonkers story. Asked what happened to the living reptilians, Grusch said they were killed, that we shot them, because they posed a threat and "US personnel started you know getting hurt and dying". He did not know how many, and said he hopes the people who were there are allowed to tell it themselves. So he is basically saying reptilians crashed, killed US personnel, and then we shot and killed them. I don't know what to think anymore.

Why I Think Jake Barber Is Behind What Grusch Was Shown

Rogan asked whether these beings are telepathic, which was a great question. Grusch offered his own hypothesis that a positive, comforting feeling people report might be a countermeasure on the craft to calm would be attackers. I think that question caught him off guard, and it seemed like a moment where Rogan caught him out, though people will read that however they want. He also mentioned egg shaped craft and that Jake Barber has talked publicly about recovering them.

Throughout this interview, all I kept thinking was that this came from Barber and his team, which I separate from Skywatcher. Barber presented a crash retrieval clip with Ross Coulthart that turned out not to even be his story, and NewsNation producers had to go through a sketchy process to see it, much like what Grusch described. Barber's work is contemporary crash retrievals from the last 10 to 15 years, and he and Grusch are well connected: photographed together, with businesses together. My theory, and it is just my opinion, is that Barber's team showed Grusch this material.

Look at how Barber described carrying an object: "I felt like I was possessed by the most beautiful spirit I'd ever been possessed by." He called it loving and "a very feminine energy." That seems very similar to Grusch's beautiful beings and loving energy. The trafficking story Grusch raised is something Barber has spoken about a lot too, as have Michael Herrera, Steven Greer and Danny Sheehan, but like Jake Barber says, that came from him. That whole story is from him. Does this make it invalid? Not by default. But it makes it more shady and less credible, and I believe it less. AARO said Barber and his team met with them and provided zero evidence: no data, documents, photos or reports.

The Hypothetical Meeting Shows a Flaw in Grusch's Thinking

Grusch told Rogan he verified a November 2004 meeting at a federally funded research center in Northern Virginia, reportedly sponsored by Steve Hadley, where thinkers weighed the pros and cons of disclosure. Grusch said he believes Hadley denies it. According to Grusch, AARO admitted in its volume one report that it took place but called it a hypothetical scenario, and Grusch's response was: "why was it hypothetical if it's not real? Nobody explains that."

That sentence stood out to me, because I think it is how Grusch sees a lot of his investigation. Why would they do this unless it was real? Why would this person tell me this unless it was real? He believes all of this not because of actual proof, yet he has never seen it with his own eyes. Hypothetical literally means it is not real. The government pays for study groups and thought experiments all the time; the CDC even has a zombie plan. I think that is a flaw in his thinking, and in that of a lot of UAP whistleblowers.

So did Grusch really see this material, and is it the smoking gun? What do you think?