Can Marvel Ever Top Avengers: Endgame? Why I Think It Can, Just Not by Repeating the Infinity Saga

I think Marvel can top Avengers: Endgame, and in terms of quality it already has, with several of its films. What I doubt is whether it can recreate the ten year journey that made Endgame land the way it did, and in April 2023 I did not think the studio was on that trajectory.

Endgame was released on April 26, 2019, the final Thursday of that April, and I saw it five times: four times in its original run, and again when it was re-released in August or September of 2019. This being my livelihood, of course I went back. The question I want to look at is the one that kept coming up four years later: was Endgame Marvel's peak, and why does it remain the film others are measured against? My own ranking of Marvel movies is constantly shifting, because I believe movies are a subjective experience, shaped by what a person is going through in their life when they sit down in front of one. Still, I think Endgame is at least in the top 10 of Marvel films.

Avengers: Endgame's box office showed how essential it felt in theaters

Endgame is one of the top grossing films of all time. When I wrote this, I believed it was at number two, though those numbers are not locked into my head because re-releases keep changing them. The first Avatar from 2009 sat at number one with a lifetime gross of around 2.9 billion dollars, Endgame was at 2.79 billion dollars worldwide, Avatar: The Way of Water was coming up behind at 2.3 billion dollars, followed by James Cameron's Titanic at 2.26 billion. Spider-Man: No Way Home, for the record, was at number seven with 1.9 billion dollars.

A movie's quality is not just a factor of how much money it makes. But I think its gross is a fair reflection of how much people consider it an important, essential experience to have in a movie theater.

Endgame paid off a decade of connected Marvel films

Endgame was the culmination of 10 years of Marvel films, starting with Robert Downey Jr.'s Iron Man in 2008. What Marvel did so successfully was double down on in universe continuity, so that each movie felt like a chapter of a must see TV series. You could not skip a title, because the films had little winks and details that referenced each other and called things back. By the end of Phase One, people realised the movies were richer if you saw all of them. It had a cumulative effect, and you felt like you were on the inside of an inside joke.

Movies had never really done that before. The James Bond franchise had a ton of installments, but they did not really connect, and Bond had been recast about six times by then: Connery, Roger Moore, Dalton, Pierce Brosnan, Daniel Craig. In the Marvel Cinematic Universe, apart from a few minor recasts early on, the characters stayed the same. We had been living with them for 10 years, and by Avengers: Infinity War it felt like a journey going according to plan.

Infinity War was, I think, one of the biggest cliffhangers since arguably The Empire Strikes Back. I spent that year speculating like crazy about the title, how they could undo Thanos's snap, whether it would be permanent, and who would die. Endgame had a very tall order, and "it pulled it off majestically."

Endgame's five year time jump was its boldest choice, and it arguably broke the MCU

The film was directed by Joe and Anthony Russo and written by Markus and McFeely, who had also written Captain America: The Winter Soldier, Civil War and Infinity War, and done a pass on Thor: The Dark World. They figured out the language and logic of the MCU, and here they had the difficult task of weaving together characters defined by the fact that they do not share a screen, and making it make sense. They totally pulled it off. It is a heroic story of people who are not having a good time, with a sense of finality that makes you think anyone could die.

It opens with Tony Stark and Nebula, a pairing we never thought we would see but which makes sense. Then the first act gives us exactly the vengeance story we had been predicting all year, before the gut punch: Thanos has used the stones to destroy the stones, and Thor decapitates him, spraying Nebula with her father's blood. That heartbreaking scene leads to the haunting reveal of five years later, which I think is the boldest choice of the film. Some of us predicted a time jump, but five years is insane, because most of the audience is old enough to remember how huge a chunk of a life that is.

That choice arguably broke the MCU from there forward, because no other title has known quite what to do with it. Loki extracted itself from the timeline, which I think was the right move, but other titles deal with some people being five years older than others and mostly do not acknowledge it. I cannot really blame the filmmakers, because how do you deal with it while serving your own story, whether that is Shang-Chi, Ms. Marvel or Eternals? They vaguely reference Endgame without dealing with it. In Endgame itself, we glimpse a relatively post apocalyptic New York but go instead to a group therapy session, which is bold screenwriting, and I think it is awesome. Still, we want to see how people survived that period. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier attempted it, but not to the point where we really know it. A story about the characters left behind during the Blip, what I call Blip fiction, still needs to happen.

The Time Heist kept time travel to the second act

Endgame capitalised on the Infinity Gauntlet storyline from the comics and actually figured out how to undo the snap without following the comics beat for beat, where Adam Warlock is brought in. The film used time travel without becoming a time travel movie, keeping it limited to the second act. In the brainstorming sequence, you get a sense that we are seeing the Avengers go through what Markus, McFeely, the Russos, Kevin Feige and the VFX team went through to figure out how the movie would work, mapping where the stones were at different points in history.

Then come the midpoint fireworks: Cap fighting his variant, the recreation of the "hail Hydra" elevator, War Machine backhanding Peter Quill as he dances to Come and Get Your Love, and parent and child moments between Tony and Howard Stark and between Thor and his mother. There is a fascinating Dark World redemption, which feels like Markus and McFeely saying there was an interesting story there, we promise. It gave heroic arcs to Nebula, Scott Lang and Clint Barton, who were sidelined or absent in Infinity War. Smart Hulk and the heavier Thor were not in any marketing, keeping two huge parts of the movie under wraps, a total marketing success.

Asked why Nebula did not warn the team about Vormir, I would point out that she did describe it as a place of death, so she warned them it was the worst assignment, and I think the Avengers accepted someone would draw the short straw. My own question is why they did not go to the Collector's vault on Knowhere, where the Power Stone and Reality Stone were briefly together. I think that might have come up, with the reasoning that no other point had two stones in one place, but that is not true. That vault could have been a great set piece.

Spider-Man: No Way Home was the better standalone movie

When we ask whether Marvel can top Endgame, the real question is whether Marvel can make 10 years of movies that hit audiences the way Endgame did. That is more complicated. I think Marvel can make a better single movie than Endgame. Not everyone would agree, but that is my opinion. I think No Way Home was a more fun moviegoing experience, which might be sacrilegious, because Endgame does many things better. But as a two to two and a half hour experience, No Way Home delivers and stands alone.

Endgame works as a finale to 10 years of storytelling, but if you walked in knowing nothing about the franchise, I think certain parts would feel like they dragged. I do not think a movie should require prep summer reading. That has been Marvel Studios' gamble as it retrained audiences, but a truly great movie should let you just walk in. Even without knowing Tobey Maguire, Andrew Garfield or the villains, you would understand No Way Home's other Spider-Men and its story of losing a parental figure, with versions of yourself from other lives guiding you through grief. I connected with that more. I also think The Winter Soldier, Guardians of the Galaxy and Infinity War were better movies than Endgame. In fact, Infinity War is a better movie than Endgame.

Phase Four could not rebuild Endgame's sense of consistency

Endgame worked because Marvel had brand consistency. Not everything connected equally, but by Infinity War and Endgame nothing was left behind; even The Dark World, which not everyone loved, became the setting of a huge part of the second act, so it all felt like required viewing. For a future crossover like Kang Dynasty or Secret Wars to pull that off, Phases Five and Six would have to set up characters we love as much as the original six Avengers and the Guardians, connected on a consistent plan.

That is hard with streaming series, because there is so much content and so many B plots and side characters, and not all of them are essential to future films. Some of it feels like you can skip it. Marvel was already testing those limits with Endgame, and with Captain Marvel, which became a billion dollar movie, it saw that it could pull it off, but I think it learned the wrong lessons and lowered the importance of side stories. Telling lots of different stories is great, but the price is that people do not feel the MCU is as essential to their lives as it was with Endgame. It is not back breaking, and maybe it is better not to need a climactic finale at all. One fan put it as quantity over quality, and I think Disney would agree; Bob Iger definitely does.

In April 2023 we did not know who the Avengers were, or any focal group of heroes. We had Doctor Strange, Captain Marvel and the other Marvels, Peter Parker, Hulk and She-Hulk, and Wong, who seems to be the biggest character because we all love him. The closest thing to an Avengers lineup in Phase Four was the Shang-Chi post credits scene with Wong, Bruce Banner, Carol Danvers, Shang-Chi and Katy discussing the Ten Rings. I do not think that gets 2.79 billion dollars. I also do not think it is fair to compare Phase Four to Phase One: by the end of Phase One we knew the lineup and the conflict, and Avengers ended with Thanos smiling at us. Phase Four ended in confusion, with a Kang threat not clearly affecting the whole universe and the Fantastic Four still not cast. Some Phase Four characters did excite me: Kathryn Hahn as Agatha Harkness has been a godsend, Wong has been great, Simu Liu's Shang-Chi has been a lot of fun, and Iman Vellani was incredible in Ms. Marvel.

Marvel could have used Loki and Wanda to reset the universe after Endgame

I often wonder whether the Infinity Saga version of these characters should have ended with Endgame. Loki and Wanda Maximoff could have been transitional heroes taking us to a new universe. Early Phase Four excited me: Loki was detached from any timeline and its characters looked at the Infinity Saga on a screen, and I felt Multiverse of Madness or No Way Home might reset things to square one. Instead, Marvel pulled its punch, keeping us in the same universe while nobody knows what to do with the Blip. Characters talk about high school and bank loans, when five years of losing half the people you knew should be the only conversation.

On that path, Marvel could have recast and rebooted into a true 616, with the Fantastic Four, X-Men, a Tony Stark and a Black Panther, looking like the comics' universe. Instead we call something 616 that many people do not identify as a complete Marvel universe. It has been fun to live with, but it is a separate one. I accept that now, and we may not get a reset until after Secret Wars. Marvel said Phase Four's job was dealing with Endgame's aftermath, but why did it have to be? They had the pandemic to take a break and figure things out. I think Disney still needed to make money, and I think they got greedy, assuming people would be as excited for new characters as they were for Robert Downey Jr., Scarlett Johansson, Mark Ruffalo, Chris Evans, Chris Hemsworth, Jeremy Renner and Samuel L. Jackson. I think a hard reboot with the X-Men in the mix is what it is going to take.

Secret Wars risked becoming a nostalgia party

Asked in 2023 who should direct Secret Wars, many people went to the Russo Brothers, who obviously understand what makes a great film; their company AGBO is the reason we have Everything Everywhere All at Once. Joe Russo had said he wants to see AI write movies, which I disagree with, but they remain talented. I also considered Jon Favreau, though I was not crazy about his recent Mandalorian work and think he is distracted. James Gunn would have been good, but he had gone to Warner Bros to oversee DC. Ryan Coogler and Destin Daniel Cretton, who was then set for Kang Dynasty, seemed like options. My best pick was the Daniels, shepherded by the Russos and AGBO as executive producers, perhaps with Markus and McFeely.

The risk is that what people were excited about for Secret Wars should worry Marvel: heroes from franchises Marvel Studios had nothing to do with, like Ben Affleck's Daredevil, Hugh Jackman's Wolverine, Patrick Stewart's Charles Xavier and Ian McKellen's Magneto, though Feige was an associate producer on Fox's first X-Men. If nobody cares about the Phase Four, Five and Six heroes, and Secret Wars is only a nostalgia party for an era we like better, it may still be a good movie, but not the same kind of hit Endgame was, a send off to characters we spent 10 years with.

A billion dollar Marvel movie does not need ten years of setup

You can make essential movies without the Infinity Saga model. James Cameron has proved it; the first Avatar invented a new world, and The Way of Water returned after years away and became essential, though I do not think his success is replicable. Top Gun: Maverick was the 2022 success story, a movie people saw because of Tom Cruise. Steven Spielberg hugged Cruise on a red carpet and credited him with saving the theatrical model; an argument could be made that is the case, and many directors echoed this. Cruise held the film back from streaming during the pandemic.

A beautifully directed, well written crowd pleaser with a big star is all you need. You could make another Iron Man with a different star, maybe even Tom Cruise, and I think you would get a billion dollar movie. A really good X-Men or Fantastic Four film can do it if the stakes count. Jon Watts directed billion dollar Spider-Man movies, and I think you need a star at the center, and Spider-Man, whoever plays him, is a star. So I do not think Endgame will be the peak. It would not surprise me if a future title became the most profitable film of all time; it is almost inevitable with Marvel's IP. I just do not think it will follow Endgame's model of 10 years of connected stories.

Steve Rogers' ending, and the man who thought he saw Clint Eastwood

Endgame did really well at ending Tony Stark's and Steve Rogers' stories. Steve dancing with Peggy Carter is a perfect ending and completely caught me by surprise; I think I had speculated about it but did not think they would do it. The time travel mostly made sense, but the epilogue logic falls apart. I do not think the writers and directors agreed on whether old Steve on the bench was from this timeline, living in the background, or from a branch timeline. Still, in the theater, we loved it.

My favourite reaction came on my third or fourth time, at the ArcLight in Sherman Oaks. In front of me sat a pumped teenage kid and his dad, who had never seen a Marvel movie and was half asleep while his son kept nudging him about Captain Marvel and Peter Parker hugging Tony. Then old Steve appeared, the dad stiffened up, and leaned to his son: "hey hey that is Clint Eastwood." It is not, but finally he could tell his son something his son did not know. The only rival is a friend's story from a Big Momma's House screening in Chicago, where a lone man in the front row said "oh yeah now there are two big mamas."

Chris Evans, mutants and my MCU ranking

On Chris Evans, I think he said while promoting Ghosted that he does not want to return until a story needs him, which kind of feels like Secret Wars. Missing him is part of why people feel uncertain about the MCU. Nothing against Anthony Mackie, who is totally fine as Captain America, but why not have both? I think we need a recast Tony Stark and Steve Rogers, not as focal characters but in the background, like a Nick Fury doing spycraft.

On mutants, I think cosmic radiation activates a mutant gene with a more ancient genetic origin, rather than implanting mutations. I think that was the case with Kamala Khan, born with the gene but only activated by the bangle. I keep hoping mutants will be explained rather than characters simply being called mutants. On trailers, I think the first two or three major ones, at least the way Disney does them, do not reveal too much, but late 30 second promos can, as with Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness.

My ranking at the time: Winter Soldier and Guardians of the Galaxy trade the top spot, with Winter Soldier slightly ahead, then Loki season one, Iron Man, which is almost a perfect film, Infinity War, No Way Home, and Endgame seventh. On Star Wars, the Celebration plans, a Rey movie, a Filoni movie I might be most excited for and James Mangold's Jedi origin story, struck me as smart. I want Star Wars making movies again, because world building across multiple streaming shows is hard, though The Bad Batch stuck the landing in ways I did not expect.

So which Marvel title do you think could be bigger than Endgame: Secret Wars, a Fantastic Four movie or an X-Men movie?